Curse

qvtkc · Aug 25, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Wait, so I'm supposed to be spamming D-Slash, and Headbutt -> Steelfang Slash so I'm gimping myself by using one skill slot that will mitigate almost every bit of damage which is instacharged is gimping myself?

You forget that when you use SY, you have to do one more swing to recharge your adrenaline skills. Which means that that swing causes like 20 damage instead of 100+. Essentially you lose one damage packet of 100 damage. Now how often do you need to do that? For K/L ranks that most people have, every 4-5 seconds, that usually means every 3-4 swings if you include blocking, having to run up to mobs, etc. So you are doing 100 less damage per 3-4 swings. Yes you are gimping yourself since the lack of SY still doesn't mean that your team dies, in fact your DPS would increase by about 33% if you drop SY, which incidentally is the same amount it goes up by if you use an IAS.
Now, you are using an IAS aren't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And you're comparing 8 skill slots dedicated to defense and 16+ skill slots dedicated to nuking stuff which has extremely high AL with skills that take ages to recharge to 2 skill slots?

Well no, I'm saying it's the logical consequence that since you don't need to tank, you shouldn't tank, and since you don't need SY, you shouldn't use SY. Besides, it's just 1 skill slot - you should bring Prot Spirit anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

How does it slow you down? You're merely using 1 second lowering your damage by 40 for that second, to give your party godmdode when you're still dealing massive DPS while fueling strong utility?

lowering your damage by a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOload more. Asuran Scan increases your damage by 75%, and that includes the +40 from DSlash.

EDIT: I haven't posted on guru for quite some time, why did it change my text to go red engine =(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The majority of damage in HM comes from autoattacking.

Well, that's true, actually, but then Ward vs Melee reduces damage by 75% without expending a PvE-skill slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

And what areas are you referring to here that a single skill is worse than a whole set of prot skills for damage reduction?

So you mean that if I take SY I won't need prot - at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by beserk

You guys don't think there isn't enough energy skills right? I'm hoping i'd have enough adrenline going to keep my bar up.

Oh and qvtkc thanks for the tip but im going to keep sy

That's your choice man, and certainly SY works too. I like to bring zealous BTW, since you need to recast Asuran Scan quite often if you know what I mean

Savio · Aug 25, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Well no, I'm saying it's the logical consequence that since you don't need to tank, you shouldn't tank, and since you don't need SY, you shouldn't use SY.

Good players don't use tanking because they don't need to, they don't use tanking because it sucks.

Quote:

Well, that's true, actually, but then Ward vs Melee reduces damage by 75% without expending a PvE-skill slot.

The ward unfortunately does not stop spells.

Tyla · Aug 25, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Put it this way, if you have the two skills Protective Spirit and Save Yourselves, you just pack a few heals, condi removal and hex if need be and fill your team with damage add-on crap. Hey, I guess it wasn't gimping.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 26, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

As I said, decent monks (well, a decent team all around, even in HM heros + hench work very smooth) means there will be no deaths. In the cases there still are deaths, they are of the kind that couldn't be prevented by SY anyway. Taking a damage dealing skill in this case means you speed things up, not slow things down

= better option.

Though on second thought [by ural's hammer] or [whirlwind attack] are still better choices than Body Blow.

If HM is as easy as you make it sound, why not drop a monk for a damage dealer and take "SY" to make up for it? If you want more damage, "SY" is not the skill you want to replace.

"SY" means your team doesn't need to use multiple skills on defense, allowing them to bring damage instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

tl;dr. if you need SY you (your team) are slow and therefore bad, same reasons as why tanking is bad

You got it reversed. "SY" allows the team to be fast and reckless, getting tons of overaggro and getting away with it. Try stepping into DoA sometime.

qvtkc · Aug 26, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You got it reversed. "SY" allows the team to be fast and reckless, getting tons of overaggro and getting away with it. Try stepping into DoA sometime.

But you can be fast and reckless without SY and still survive.

Besides it's interesting that you mention DoA, since

SAVE YOURSE[vocal minority]ffffffffffffffff

SAVE YO[freezing gust]once I catch up with monsters so I can hit them
SAVE YOURSELF yay I can finally use the sho[dark aura][vampiric bite]oh crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Good players don't use tanking because they don't need to, they don't use tanking because it sucks.

"It sucks"? Yes it does, but why does it suck? It sucks because it's slow and because that slowness isn't needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The ward unfortunately does not stop spells.

But "the majority of damage comes from auto attack" anyway. Ward doesn't stop armor ignoring damage, deep wound, degen and so on either.

Tyla · Aug 26, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

But you can be fast and reckless without SY and still survive.

Besides it's interesting that you mention DoA, since

SAVE YOURSE[vocal minority]ffffffffffffffff

Hex removal. You should bring that for the majority of DoA anyway. Why? The amount of melee hate hexes there is stupidity.

Quote:

SAVE YO[freezing gust]once I catch up with monsters so I can hit them

Earth Shaker.

Quote:

SAVE YOURSELF yay I can finally use the sho[dark aura][vampiric bite]oh crap.

Earth Shaker.

Those things you said are all affecting your melee in the first place, so you're basically saying that melee is bad there yet physical runs have been done through all 4 of the areas. That is why in the runs I did it in, there was an Earth Shaker on my group too. Oh, and if you didn't guess correctly, Divert Hexes.

Quote:

"It sucks"? Yes it does, but why does it suck? It sucks because it's slow and because that slowness isn't needed.

What does that have to do with SY?

Quote:

But "the majority of damage comes from auto attack" anyway. Ward doesn't stop armor ignoring damage, deep wound, degen and so on either.

That is mainly from physical enemies, but it seems you needed me to narrow it down a little bit. Oh, and physical damage can come from range too, you know. Not to mention wanding damage also adds onto it.

By the way, it's funny you didn't reply to what I said after Savio.

Desert Rose · Aug 26, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Tank 'N' Spank is also a slower method than any other.

No, Tank'n'Spank is one of the fastest and simplest methods out there.
Cryway can fight through the entiere DoA in less than one and half an hour, and Urgoz is finished in less than 20 minutes.

isamu kurosawa · Aug 26, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

No, Tank'n'Spank is one of the fastest and simplest methods out there.
Cryway can fight through the entiere DoA in less than one and half an hour, and Urgoz is finished in less than 20 minutes.

Cryway isn't tank'n'spank. Or at least a proper one isn't.

Tyla · Aug 26, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

No, Tank'n'Spank is one of the fastest and simplest methods out there.
Cryway can fight through the entiere DoA in less than one and half an hour, and Urgoz is finished in less than 20 minutes.

You don't need to waste someone on a tank for the game. SoA + PSpirit.

Age · Aug 26, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

You can tank all you want you simply won't do the amount of damage of pure Warrior with 3 to 4 attack skill plus an IAS.

Desert Rose · Aug 27, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Cryway isn't tank'n'spank. Or at least a proper one isn't.

Well, one guy will pull half of the entire map and gather the monsters together, the other players will then nuke all away in one big blast; if that is not Tank'n'Spank, what is it then?

Quote:

You don't need to waste someone on a tank for the game. SoA + PSpirit.

Sure, you don't need one, but why bothering learn to play the game when you just can learn to abuse the AI?

Tyla · Aug 27, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Sure, you don't need one, but why bothering learn to play the game when you just can learn to abuse the AI?

SoA + PSpirit, you are abusing the AI the same way you do in Tank 'n' Spank. The only difference is you don't have 2 to 3 people devoting their bar to defense on a single person.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 27, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Well, one guy will pull half of the entire map and gather the monsters together, the other players will then nuke all away in one big blast; if that is not Tank'n'Spank, what is it then?

Well there's a big difference betwen Cryway and a typical "tank n spank" team that uses ele's for damage, which is alot weaker for many reasons. I guess I'll call it "Eleway" for now, since that's where all the damage comes from. It definitely can't instakill like Cryway can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Sure, you don't need one, but why bothering learn to play the game when you just can learn to abuse the AI?

There's tons of screenshots of speedruns done in elite areas all over guru. Not a single one was done by Eleway. That's cause it's known to be really slow. A majority of those speedclears were done by Cryway, Phys teams, and Ursan, which is dead now.

For inexperienced players/pug's, it's fine to abuse stupid AI, but experienced/skilled players would rather abuse powerful skills, such as "SY". Phys teams are setup so they don't need a tank. The whole team takes aggro and they're ready to deal with it. Teams that rely on a tank are setup so all aggro must be on the tank - if that tank fails and the rest of the team takes aggro, they're likely to wipe since they're not setup to fight in those situations.

While Cryway pug's do use tanks, I'm pretty sure that it'd be much better and faster if it was setup so that a tank isn't needed. The thing with tanks is that they're pug-friendly, so they're gonna stay popular untill some big change hits the game.

Age · Aug 27, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I would say if the guy wants to tank let him just don't go giving him any more advice and let him play the game his way and to Desert Rose of you won't take advice from us don't come back in Warrior forum asking for more.

Enjoy tanking.

Proff · Aug 27, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Maybe add a minor strength rune for 13 strength?

Eh, just noticed the 2 pages on tanking, guess were not discussing the build anymore ^^

Bobby2 · Aug 27, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Upping every other teammates AL to 160+ (at least theoretically) increases the chance of enemy AI targeting the gracious benefactor.

Why any tank war claiming to be Strong and Brave would ever go without it?
(Answer: deep down, they're wimps

)

beserk · Aug 29, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Hey guys please refrain from going off topic, thanks for all those who helped me with my build mods can close this thread thank you all again.